The Hidden Trauma: Brothers' Perspectives on Family Sexual Abuse | Wheel With It Podcast

[00:00:00] Years later, everything Michael Jackson said would happen is happening because we are with United Artists Records.

[00:00:08] My mother looks at us and says, your stepfather has been molesting your sisters for years.

[00:00:16] Have you ever wondered what a brother experiences emotionally?

[00:00:21] Once we learn, our sisters have been texturizing of you.

[00:00:25] Welcome to the Wheel With It Podcast with your host Devon at Wheel With It.

[00:00:29] No matter who you are or where you come from, there's a place for you.

[00:00:32] On this show, we have real conversations with fascinating people.

[00:00:36] Let's get into the episode.

[00:00:37] Hello, hello. My name is Devon Wieters.

[00:00:39] Welcome to another episode of Wheel With It.

[00:00:42] I just wanted to say a few things about this podcast before we get started.

[00:00:48] First, it's not for young ears.

[00:00:50] So if you have kids in the car, I would highly recommend that you either skip this one

[00:00:55] or listen to it when the kids are not in the car because we do talk about some sexual abuse stuff.

[00:01:02] I just wanted to give you a heads up, but this conversation is so fascinating.

[00:01:07] Keeper was such a cool guy and such a nice guy.

[00:01:12] And his life story is just absolutely fascinating.

[00:01:16] So I think you guys are really going to enjoy this one even though it's tough in some areas.

[00:01:21] But again, not for young ears.

[00:01:24] And don't forget to like, subscribe, follow all the things.

[00:01:28] So now with that, let's get into the conversation with Keeper.

[00:01:33] Hello, hello. My name is Devon Wieters.

[00:01:35] Welcome to another episode of Wheel With It.

[00:01:37] We are back after a long break, but I am honored to have Keeper Catherine Whitney on the podcast with us today.

[00:01:47] How are you, Keeper?

[00:01:48] I am fantastic. How are you today?

[00:01:52] Good. Is that your real name?

[00:01:53] Keeper is a nickname. People have been calling me that for decades.

[00:01:58] And that's just what everyone calls me.

[00:02:00] That is such a cool name. You get the Cool Name Award first.

[00:02:06] So tell us about yourself as much as you're comfortable with because you have a very sensitive story that we will be talking about today.

[00:02:13] So this podcast is probably not for young ears.

[00:02:17] I just want to say that off the top, but tell us about yourself and then we'll go from there.

[00:02:23] Absolutely. As you said, my name is Keeper Catherine Whitney.

[00:02:26] I am the author of the book Helplessness, the Emotional Health Challenges Brothers Experience.

[00:02:33] Once we learn our sisters have been sexually abused by our parents.

[00:02:37] And as you said, this is a very sensitive topic. It usually is not for young ears.

[00:02:42] However, I have to say of late, I have been on a number of podcasts as a guest for teenagers who want to explore this topic because it's happening in your school.

[00:02:56] This happening in their homes.

[00:02:58] The story is told from a brother's perspective.

[00:03:01] What happens for us emotionally, what we deal with.

[00:03:06] And usually I start out by asking a very simple question and it says, have you ever wondered what a brother experiences emotionally once we learn our sisters have been sexually abused?

[00:03:19] Most people are going to say, no, I've never even given it any thought.

[00:03:23] And my response is, don't worry. You're not alone, but you're about to learn.

[00:03:28] You're about to find out in my family's story and the experience of me and my seven siblings.

[00:03:33] You're going to learn some things and it is very sensitive.

[00:03:38] And because of the nature of the conversation, protect yourself emotionally at all times.

[00:03:43] Pull away, step back if you have to. Will it podcast?

[00:03:47] We'll be here.

[00:03:48] You can always come back to it.

[00:03:50] Yes, we will be here.

[00:03:52] We've gone with literally I make no money off this.

[00:03:57] This is a hobby.

[00:03:58] I've literally had two listeners to an episode before, so it will not offend me if you step back and take the time you need because this is a very sensitive topic.

[00:04:09] Tell us just about your childhood and how you found all this out and we'll go from there.

[00:04:14] Sure.

[00:04:14] Sure. In 1971, my family, we were buried for we were living in abject poverty.

[00:04:20] We could barely pay an 80 or $90 a month rent.

[00:04:24] My family consists of 10 people, my mother, my stepfather, my four of the four boys with which I have one obviously and my four sisters and life.

[00:04:33] I went to 11 grade schools before I graduated high school.

[00:04:37] I lived in 21 different places.

[00:04:39] Yes, I lived in 21 different places before I moved down homeless three.

[00:04:45] So I know what it's like to have that kind of life growing up.

[00:04:49] My mother who was a great singer decided that she was going to get together with her brother and sister and former group and as great as they were, they could not make enough money to make his week.

[00:04:59] So in 1971, Michael Jackson, Bob's are everywhere.

[00:05:03] They are all over the globe.

[00:05:05] You're here at ABC.

[00:05:06] Who's going to be you?

[00:05:07] I want you back.

[00:05:07] They are everywhere.

[00:05:10] Yes.

[00:05:10] My mother, yes.

[00:05:12] The Jackson 5 was remarkable because you still recognize their songs today and it was like what?

[00:05:19] Yeah.

[00:05:19] And this is before Michael Jackson becomes the king of pop.

[00:05:23] So my mother hears us singing around the house and she asked what you kids like to sing because they're the singing family.

[00:05:27] We can make more money.

[00:05:28] So of course, he said, yeah.

[00:05:30] The next thing we are singing and after our night clubs all over Los Angeles, we are singing at two o'clock in the morning until four o'clock in the morning, all over Los Angeles.

[00:05:41] And we do that.

[00:05:44] We rehearse.

[00:05:45] We go to school and we get up and we repeat one Saturday.

[00:05:48] We are rehearsing in the phone.

[00:05:50] My mother answers the phone and says hello.

[00:05:52] Say that again.

[00:05:53] Hold on.

[00:05:54] And then she looks at his kids while we're rehearsing and says Michael Jackson's on the phone.

[00:05:59] What the?

[00:05:59] Yeah.

[00:06:01] Exactly.

[00:06:02] That was our reaction and he asked me to the brother under me, brother number four.

[00:06:09] And my brother gets on the phone and says he's all excited.

[00:06:12] Hello?

[00:06:13] And then soon after he hangs up and he screams Michael Jackson said he's part of us.

[00:06:17] He's like a dang just like him.

[00:06:19] Oh my gosh.

[00:06:21] Okay.

[00:06:22] And he says for us to keep going we will get there someday.

[00:06:26] We will make it big.

[00:06:27] Just keep going.

[00:06:28] We keep going.

[00:06:30] And now six years later it's 1970s.

[00:06:33] We are everywhere.

[00:06:34] We're doing concerts.

[00:06:35] We're doing TV shows.

[00:06:36] We're magazines.

[00:06:38] We are, we made the Billboard Top 100 three times that.

[00:06:43] Oh, holy cow.

[00:06:44] And six years later everything Michael Jackson said would happen is happening because

[00:06:49] we are with United Artists Records.

[00:06:51] 77 is also the year Motown finishes an exhausted three-year search to replace

[00:06:59] Michael Jackson and Jackson Park who they had lost earlier to Epic Records and guess

[00:07:04] who they show?

[00:07:05] We were the family to replace them.

[00:07:08] Oh, well you definitely get the award for most fascinating story because wow I

[00:07:15] did not expect that.

[00:07:16] There's, we haven't gotten to the part yet.

[00:07:20] Yes, there's a not good part in there, but as far as good parts

[00:07:24] too. You get the good part award too because it was an exciting

[00:07:30] time for us. Here we are for we the house that we're living in

[00:07:36] is being paid for by United Artist Records and their paint

[00:07:39] for our food, their paint for our clothes, their paint

[00:07:41] for everything because we were reaching fame but we did

[00:07:45] not have any money but we were getting there and what

[00:07:48] Michael Jackson said was about to happen is the Motown

[00:07:52] comes to us and offers us the largest new artist contract they

[00:07:56] offered anybody larger than the Jackson five, larger than the Supreme, larger than

[00:08:01] the Fortops, larger than any. And so that week that we

[00:08:07] are deciding this contract few days before my sister screams upstairs

[00:08:12] boy come downstairs family needy we all come running downstairs. I'm the last

[00:08:16] kid to enter and when I enter I notice on the couch my three

[00:08:20] younger sisters are huddled together and they're not seeing a word which is

[00:08:24] really odd because all they did was laugh and joke and tease

[00:08:28] everybody that's all they ever did but they're sitting in a corner and not

[00:08:31] seeing a word. My two youngest brothers are sitting at the opposite

[00:08:34] end of the couch and they are quiet but they're like me they're like what's

[00:08:39] going on why aren't the girls saying anything we are about to become

[00:08:42] famous we are about to become rich. We're doing it learn what day we're going to

[00:08:47] sign this contract as I enter the living room my oldest sister is pacing back

[00:08:51] and forth in front of the entryway if she is I have no idea but this is

[00:08:56] what I do know earlier that day earlier Saturday morning my fourth sister

[00:09:00] and my mother were going from room to room arguing about something

[00:09:06] not a clue I just figured it was girls doing what they do their arguing

[00:09:09] my oldest sister got into arguing with my mom okay it's what they do so I'm

[00:09:13] figuring okay that's why they're quiet whatever I take a seat my older

[00:09:18] brother he's standing at the far end of the couch and he like me has no idea

[00:09:22] then within seconds my mother stepfather entered the living room my stepfather

[00:09:27] is six foot c huge he's a big dude he's 250 pounds and you wore this

[00:09:33] huge afro wig that put his height at over seven feet tall so he's a mountain

[00:09:38] of a man we have a brown recliner that sits in the middle of the living room he

[00:09:42] immediately sits down in it and bends over and puts his face in his hands like

[00:09:47] this and I'm wondering what's the deal is is he sick or something why did he do

[00:09:50] that my mother walks right behind him but then she stands in the middle of

[00:09:54] the living room and she looks at her eight kids the seven of us by the

[00:09:58] couch and sitting on the couch and my oldest sister who is still pacing

[00:10:01] back and forth but when she looks at my sister who's the oldest when she's

[00:10:05] child number three the oldest of the girl if looks could kill she would have

[00:10:09] killed her and if my older sister could have killed her with her look she would

[00:10:13] have killed my mom something is wrong the girls know but we four boys don't

[00:10:18] have a clue but we are about to find out emotional

[00:10:22] earthquake I live in California we have earthquakes all the time

[00:10:25] they break freeways what else houses cranks

[00:10:29] trees are uprooted those are material or points you can put those

[00:10:33] things back together the rebar some nails some hammer

[00:10:36] everything gets goes back together not a problem get back on the streets dry go

[00:10:40] back in the house not a problem those are material my brother's in there

[00:10:44] about to be hit with three emotional earthquakes

[00:10:47] in less than 10 minutes and when you're hit with an emotional hurt I'm about

[00:10:50] 16 or 17 I'm still very young and I just hung with my brother and

[00:10:54] sisters all the time we were very tight

[00:10:56] the eight of us in fact my mother had all eight of us by the time she was

[00:11:00] holy cow yeah my friends had people I graduated from high school with none of

[00:11:07] the people that I was really close with and still hang out with today have kids

[00:11:10] but the people that I'm like friends on Facebook with or whatever they have kids

[00:11:14] I think twos of I at 24 eights like how I don't

[00:11:19] I told my mom you are always on your back

[00:11:22] in her response was baby I never had a hitting I'm like that's obvious

[00:11:28] you never said no yeah that's how close we are my brothers and sisters we did

[00:11:33] everything together we played together we sang together we watched movies

[00:11:37] together we did everything together so we're very tight

[00:11:40] and the earthquakes emotionally that we are about to be hit with and

[00:11:44] understand for those of you listening those of you watching what we're

[00:11:47] about to get into as I said it could be very triggering

[00:11:50] because the subject is child sexuality it can be very triggering so let me now

[00:11:54] go into what me and my three brothers were hit with earthquake

[00:11:57] number one emotionally my mother looks at us and says your stepfather has been

[00:12:02] molesting your sisters for years I'm a brother I don't know what to do I'm in

[00:12:07] shock and disbelief emotionally I am sloppy I am slow on the uptake because

[00:12:12] she's continuing to talk but my world has just been rocked and I'm catching

[00:12:17] a few words I'm hearing liquor store and I'm hearing park I'm hearing

[00:12:23] someone's apartment and I'm hearing this sister and that sister but

[00:12:27] I don't know what to do my family is so tight and to get this kind of news it's

[00:12:34] the news no brother could ever prepare we ever expect to hear and then she hits

[00:12:38] us with another earthquake she says I have known all along you've

[00:12:43] known what all along she has known that this has been going on

[00:12:47] between my stepfather and her four daughters since the beginning in fact

[00:12:52] it started in 1971 the year Michael Jackson called our house my three youngest

[00:12:58] sisters who are the three youngest of us five the two twins or the twins redundant

[00:13:04] the twins girls are five years old the sister directly above them is six years

[00:13:09] old and my oldest sister when he started with her she was 11 this is what they

[00:13:14] were arguing about all morning it's time to tell the boy before we sign

[00:13:18] this contract they need to know what has been going on this deep

[00:13:23] dark family secret and so my brothers and I are being hit with this we are

[00:13:28] dropping we don't know what to do our world is breaking apart and then

[00:13:34] we are hit with earthquake number three my oldest sister

[00:13:38] child number three looks at her four brothers and says it took me a long time

[00:13:42] to understand this it took me years to understand what was going on here

[00:13:47] because I didn't know why she would say this to us but she looked at us and

[00:13:52] says you boys can't talk about it it didn't happen to you it only happened to us

[00:13:56] girls nothing happened to you boys don't tell anybody and when you're so close

[00:14:02] to brothers and sisters like we were and you're told by the people you need

[00:14:07] to speak to the most who could help you understand that you can't talk

[00:14:11] about it which is to say your feelings don't matter

[00:14:14] you don't matter you have to deal with this however you're going to deal with it

[00:14:18] we were hit with it and so my book talks about what brothers go through when

[00:14:23] we cannot have these conversations with our sisters once we learn that they have

[00:14:27] been sexually abused either inside the home outside the home the burns that

[00:14:33] we carry emotionally the shame and the guilt and the stigma and how you

[00:14:37] come back from that and how you can reconnect with your sisters what took

[00:14:42] me 45 years to do that is the framework for our discussion and what I talk about

[00:14:49] with my goal is to bring brothers into the conversation to elevate our voices

[00:14:53] to let people know we are in pain and that we are carrying a lot of trauma

[00:14:58] so for sharing that by the way tell us about I guess what the reconnection

[00:15:04] process was like writing the book and everything and what you do now

[00:15:09] what I do now is I talk on the subject of child sexual abuse where you bring

[00:15:14] brothers into the conversation that's what I do now because in 1977 when we

[00:15:21] learned about this you could go to a library and you could find articles

[00:15:24] and books and every now and then you'd get a movie or documentary from a

[00:15:28] woman's perspective about what they have been dealing with there was nothing

[00:15:32] for brothers we are just left holding the emotional baggage the emotional

[00:15:37] trauma the psychological and emotional impact is devastating on us and so what I do now through

[00:15:45] helplessness which is book one of a three book series some helplessness to hopefulness

[00:15:50] to happiness is talk about the fear and anxiety and confusion that brothers experience because

[00:15:57] when like I said when we are told we can't talk about it what we hear is that we don't matter

[00:16:01] and so that's 1977 today there are still no tools and systems in place to help brother deal with

[00:16:11] the fact that our self esteem has been under attack our self work is under attack

[00:16:17] and the people who could help us have told us to go away and in the process we become taboo

[00:16:25] we become an inconvenient truth no one wants to talk about brothers from the predator to the

[00:16:30] people that empower them to be victims there's discussion but there's always collateral damage

[00:16:37] in the family there's always a family if one person is sexually abused the entire family

[00:16:43] is sexually abused and when it comes out everyone's needs and emotional stresses

[00:16:49] need to be addressed and oftentimes the brothers we have nowhere to go even today

[00:16:55] there are no books and magazines and articles and 12-step programming

[00:16:59] there's not even a one-step program so my mission is to bring us into the conversation

[00:17:04] it took me a long time to figure out how to work through my trauma and my guilt at not knowing

[00:17:12] and finding a way back to my sister's it took about 45 years

[00:17:18] what do we need to have in place to help families and siblings of victims

[00:17:25] what you find today is you can go to family therapists you can go to counseling and they

[00:17:31] would look at it from a family dynamic which needs to be dealt with and there are

[00:17:38] tools and systems in place not only for women but for men who have been direct victims of

[00:17:45] sexual abuse what is not in place are the rest of the siblings there's nothing for us and especially

[00:17:52] for brothers even my sister older sisters that you can't talk about it as I said I didn't understand

[00:17:58] it immediately because all I knew was that I just saw my family break apart and things

[00:18:04] happen so quickly my mother soon as my oldest sister said when she said she got my stepfather

[00:18:11] out of the room by faking a heart attack because here you have four brothers who are young as we were

[00:18:20] could start to put things together could start to say we are going to deal with him but even that

[00:18:25] causes some additional rather causes a lot of additional trauma for everyone but she got him

[00:18:31] out of the house and in the immediate aftermath you go to your room and you're in this

[00:18:36] isolation you're alone and in your head and the depression and even though you have these

[00:18:42] protective ends again there's nothing for you today there are no tools for brothers you can go

[00:18:49] to a family therapist or a sexual abuse counselor and I have been

[00:18:55] assailing the past three months I've been a guest on close to 150 talking about this and

[00:19:02] what people say when I tell them is I never even thought about the brothers because no one ever asked

[00:19:07] are you okay do you need to talk is there anything unique and for my sister to say what she said she

[00:19:13] was protecting her protecting my three little sister and I get it I understand it of course she

[00:19:18] does because historically what men have done to women since the beginning of time on this

[00:19:24] topic has been horrific but there's but there are innocent people who are impacted along

[00:19:30] the way and they have to have an opportunity to find the help that they need so that's really

[00:19:36] important what you're saying thank you for sharing that again it's about the reconnection process with

[00:19:44] your sisters what was that like yes so once my sister said that we can't talk about it a couple

[00:19:50] of my sisters immediately left and they moved out right away but everyone else stayed together

[00:19:55] because we knew we were still in a contract with and still with United Artists at least but obviously

[00:20:00] we did not do the deal with Motown it's a way to try to keep it going because we took it easy

[00:20:05] and along the way as years passed my brother that I would hear from our sisters how come you

[00:20:10] didn't how come you didn't hear us how come you didn't see us the whole process for them

[00:20:14] was to keep them silent so as we began to move as I began to move forward my mother

[00:20:21] would tell us that she she will handle this but she didn't and quite frankly when my mother

[00:20:27] said she were handle this it meant I didn't have to do any and that is a shame and a guilt and a

[00:20:35] betrayal on my part because I put the two together my sister said don't do anything

[00:20:40] don't even lift the finger then my mother said she won't handle it but I'm feeling all of this

[00:20:45] and you start to go into a dark place because your emotional trauma has not been addressed

[00:20:50] when emotional trauma is not addressed what you are left with is the next step which is mental

[00:20:56] health trauma and with mental health trauma it becomes logical it becomes isolation in your

[00:21:03] alone and you start to in your head you start to come up with ways to do things that you probably

[00:21:09] shouldn't do and for me the media process was it took me nine years to do something this

[00:21:14] would even my once I saw him my stepfather 24 hours to do something otherwise I would be

[00:21:19] killing so my sisters and I we would maybe see each other on Thanksgiving or Christmas or something

[00:21:24] like that but we would hear from them you didn't do anything my brothers and I we didn't even talk

[00:21:30] to each other about it and people won't ask me how come I had already lost my family and we're

[00:21:37] hanging by a thread literally hanging by a thread and all it's going to take is one more

[00:21:44] incident one more conversation and I am cut free and I'm out in the ether my foundation the people

[00:21:51] that keep me they keep me grounded have let me go and so for me and my brothers that's why we didn't

[00:21:59] say anything we didn't want to lose our sisters so the process of getting back to them was long

[00:22:05] and hard and the major fact was we were just afraid so I decided I wanted to write a book

[00:22:11] that could explain to other men out there who are experiencing the same thing and there are

[00:22:19] many there are hundreds who are carrying this same burden that you're not alone and hopefully in

[00:22:24] the process sisters would read it and say I had no idea this is what my brother was going through

[00:22:28] so as I was going to write the book I was so afraid but I knew I had to tell my sister

[00:22:33] because I didn't want them to be called off guard I knew they were going to be angry

[00:22:36] but I needed to do this because I needed to give I needed to give myself a voice I needed

[00:22:41] to find a way to push back I needed to find a sense of courage and reconnect with my manhood

[00:22:49] find myself esteem to self-worth and I figured okay if I write this book from a brother's

[00:22:54] perspective I could maybe use it to reconnect with my sister so I called them a couple of

[00:23:00] them before in fact three of them before I was going to write the book and told them

[00:23:04] this is what I was going to do and I remember the first conversation with my second sister

[00:23:08] I had gone over to her house and I told her what I was going to do and I'm waiting for all of this

[00:23:12] anger this is around night this is 20 this is 2030 and I'm standing in front of her house

[00:23:18] and I'm crying because I know what I know what she's going to say how dare you who do you

[00:23:24] think you are you know you boys can't talk about this it didn't happen to you but it did

[00:23:28] it happened to all of us me and my brother just didn't know what happened to us

[00:23:32] so when I it requires a lot of courage to find the emotional strength and where with all

[00:23:40] to go talk to our sisters about it she said of course you should write all you boys should write

[00:23:44] it I'm like wait a minute what are you talking about you said don't write it don't say anything

[00:23:48] but time has a way of healing and my other sisters were pretty much the same way so

[00:23:55] that's what gave me the strength and the courage to write the book and feel confident

[00:24:00] that I would not lose my sisters in the process that's really cool that they gave you their blessing

[00:24:06] to do that that must have been hard for them too I found it yes and no and understand I wasn't

[00:24:11] looking for permission and I wasn't looking for their blessing because I'm going to do this

[00:24:15] anyway because I need to be able to heal myself but I figured if I wrote the book it could possibly

[00:24:21] help us heal together and not only that it meant my family's tragedy could be something that didn't

[00:24:30] end in tragedy it could be something that ended by helping other people other brothers and other

[00:24:36] families on the sisters understand so it wasn't about getting their blessing as I'm doing it anyway

[00:24:43] but the fact that the three that I did communicate with and would continue and was willing to talk

[00:24:50] to me said yes you should absolutely write this meant it told me I didn't have to wait 45 years

[00:24:57] I could have gone to them earlier but I was so afraid of losing them forever and that's the

[00:25:02] limbo brothers get stuck in we're in this we're in this emotional purgatory and it's one of those

[00:25:08] things that when you're told that you can't do something and get you here this is it's a pair

[00:25:15] that we cannot talk about what happened but we're expected to answer for our knowing participation

[00:25:21] in the conversation you're not brought into it but you're expected to answer for not being in it

[00:25:27] and those things should not exist in the same space but they do so what I found the greatest

[00:25:33] strength that I got then released me from a lot of pain and trauma was finding the courage

[00:25:39] to actually talk about it so much just went away I was no longer trapped by what my sister said I was

[00:25:46] no longer trapped with the knowledge of what my mother allowed to happen and what my stepfather did

[00:25:52] I started to reclaim my own space and my own person and it became incredibly empowering

[00:25:58] and finding that voice is not easy to do yeah I'm sure that was a really tough journey and

[00:26:05] thank you for taking it because now you're here which relationship with your mother I don't have

[00:26:11] a relationship with my mother right now and had alluded to it took me nine years to do something

[00:26:19] and part of the reason why I said it because she said she would handle it but I it got to be

[00:26:26] nine years because I was going to get married in 1986 nine years after and I just started to go

[00:26:32] into a dark place because I hadn't done anything and so I dealt with my stepfather and luckily he

[00:26:38] heated my warning and stopped coming around because I was getting ready to kill him he was going to be

[00:26:42] here or or he's going to kill me but I would be too so no take but I have very little conversation

[00:26:51] with my mom very little and so she did ask can I make your wedding cake okay fine can I stole

[00:26:59] your time okay fine I'm saying oh all right coming in into the way my mother was all about

[00:27:04] image and I know when I get married I'm going to have children of which I have to I've been married

[00:27:09] 38 years congratulations thank you and I told my fiancee at the time if we have children I want

[00:27:15] them to know their grandmother because I don't want to go through what I went through and not

[00:27:20] seeing my grandmothers for decades which is what we went through going up we didn't see our

[00:27:25] grandparents for decade over some nonsense and I didn't want to repeat that so I told her

[00:27:31] I'm going to offer my mother and all of and hopefully she won't betray us again hopefully she'll see

[00:27:38] what's more important is the emotional health of her children so what I did and this was pretty

[00:27:43] much the last straw for me about three weeks before my wedding I went to my mother and I

[00:27:48] said okay look I know we're not talking much there's really nothing here if we have children

[00:27:52] I want them to know you this is what I'm going to do know that we do not want our step dad there

[00:27:58] because my mother was all about image still image was her thing she did not want to not be without a

[00:28:04] man ever when we were running friends it was weird so I said know that we do not want him here in

[00:28:10] this way but if you want to invite him you can but know that we do not want him so I figured

[00:28:17] okay this isn't all of friends you'll see that I'm trying to recreate a relationship

[00:28:22] of course he's not going to come but now what that you don't we what you've just done okay maybe

[00:28:29] we can build on that maybe the family can come back together in a more positive way

[00:28:33] but I realized in that moment based on our answer I had done the wrong thing she said let me think

[00:28:39] about it and I knew what I had done because I picked up my word as best I can and I live with

[00:28:44] the consequences so where he was gone she invites him to be in the wedding and the son that got him

[00:28:51] out is responsible for putting him back in front of his sister and that is what drove three of my

[00:28:57] sisters did not talk to me for 20 years because I didn't they didn't know I was the one that got

[00:29:04] him out in the first place I never told got him out of where got him out of our lives

[00:29:10] okay when I threatened to kill him for and I didn't tell anyone what I had done they all assumed

[00:29:16] it was my mother and I didn't tell them because I didn't think it was important I was just doing

[00:29:19] what the brother was supposed to do but this brother was supposed to do because to me the

[00:29:24] definition of a brother with sisters is you protect their honor and I had not done that

[00:29:28] and so I was willing to put my life on the line to do whatever was necessary to get him

[00:29:33] from being around but after doing that because I'd gone to this mental place where I was losing

[00:29:38] weight and I was just really really angry with myself and not talking much I said to myself okay

[00:29:44] let me try to do something that could help the family and make me offer my mother this olive

[00:29:49] branch what I did was break things even further and so that's why we did not talk for as long as

[00:29:56] we did but I have to say in writing helpless and them saying yes you should write it I went

[00:30:01] back to them and asked an outlandish question about the book I asked the question that I knew

[00:30:08] they would say hell no I asked each of the three of them would you be willing to write a chapter

[00:30:14] in the book tell it from your perspective whatever you want to say attack me do whatever you want

[00:30:19] because I think your voice in the book even though it's from a brother's perspective would lend

[00:30:25] a lot of positive because being very positive influence for other sisters reading it because

[00:30:30] they would be able to say oh his sister's contributed to the book what are they saying about

[00:30:35] what happened and then like so the three of them said yes and two brothers said yes oftentimes when I

[00:30:40] talk they do events and things there's usually a woman who will ask who will say to me for your

[00:30:46] sisters were right it didn't happen to you boys it did happen to them I do the thing that if

[00:30:51] it happened to one person in the family it happened to all of us and I'll say yeah so she

[00:30:55] said so it had nothing to do with it you can't talk about it and then I tell them this six years

[00:31:00] before my sister's was sexually abused by her 71 my older brother and I we were sexually

[00:31:05] abused by our babysitter almost daily for six months in 1965 I was six years old my older

[00:31:11] brother was seven so I do understand what my sisters were going through and what that does

[00:31:19] is it gives me and those reading the book because the entire story is in the book they

[00:31:25] begin to say oh he does understand and women have told me hundred oh you do get it you do understand

[00:31:32] and the challenge we should not be having this ratio contest whose trauma is worse the direct

[00:31:38] victims versus the indirect victim the women versus the men my trauma is worse because I'm a woman

[00:31:44] and you're a guy there's this battle that takes place all the time around child sexual abuse

[00:31:50] we cannot afford to have that kind of battle we have to find our allies wherever we can

[00:31:55] and we need to be able to bring those people who can elevate our voices

[00:31:59] so we can get legislation we can inform law enforcement we can inform schools and teachers

[00:32:05] and our religious leaders the other things of type of tools that we need to have creative

[00:32:10] yeah that's really good that you're doing that what do you wish law enforcement and people knew

[00:32:16] about son for weeks oftentimes and you can ask anyone who suffered from sexual abuse that's not

[00:32:23] just children that when you talk about it the immediate reaction usually is by can't be true

[00:32:28] especially with women it happens all the time no she's probably being dramatic that's exactly

[00:32:34] oh you misunderstood that's not what he was doing it women suffer that all the time and I

[00:32:41] know it's wrong because I have my youngest brother who it's day tells me that his five-year-old sister

[00:32:48] produced our stepfather he still doesn't believe it and so even at children's age that happened

[00:32:55] and so what law enforcement and legislation legislative leaders political leaders need

[00:33:01] to understand we don't bring up this conversation lightly it's hard to admit it because we

[00:33:08] know the stigma that we're going to be up against we know the shame of other people knowing and other

[00:33:14] people saying oh you misunderstood oh and if it's a woman girl I would have done this do what I would

[00:33:20] have done that no you don't know what you would have done and we need to be able to have the

[00:33:24] conversation that is more about truth than trying to protect the predators and those people who

[00:33:33] empower them which is usually what happens initially there's this and as you so rightly

[00:33:39] pointed out women get so much pushback as do children so unless we're going to have an honest

[00:33:46] conversation I think the best conversation that happens is when we can bring men and women together

[00:33:53] those who are coming together an ally ship as opposed to being enemy which is often the

[00:33:58] case and me and my brothers we were guilty from our sister's perspective because what was between

[00:34:02] my stepdad's legs is what's between our legs which kind of made us guilty by gender proximity if you

[00:34:08] will we can't we can't afford to have those kind of conversations they do not serve we need to

[00:34:14] create allies wherever we can and then we need to raise our voices in unison whenever however

[00:34:21] and for as loud as we can otherwise we are all going to be overlooked in this conversation

[00:34:27] yeah and it's the same thing I was I've had a very supportive family growing up and stuff so

[00:34:32] not at the hands of my family but I was in an emotional abusive relationship it was long

[00:34:38] distance so I never got there's a great harm or anything like that but my peers were very

[00:34:42] supportive and all that so I'm not saying they didn't believe me or anything but

[00:34:47] at a certain point you don't know like how bad emotional abuse is because

[00:34:52] you haven't really lived it kind of thing so even if it is long distance it's it's still haunt you

[00:34:59] it's still bad so absolutely and you mentioned there's the emotional abuse there's a psychological

[00:35:05] abuse you don't it doesn't need to you know he'd have been the same with the person

[00:35:09] to be abused like you're saying along distance relationship there's a psychological

[00:35:14] there's the emotional abuse all of these things and then when you're talking about some

[00:35:19] physical act that's just an additional layer on top of it so you're absolutely correct and I am

[00:35:25] incredibly happy that your family did not discount anything that you said because there are a first

[00:35:32] line of defense they're our first line of support we need them to understand what we are saying

[00:35:39] what we are going through is has traumatized us I'd like to look at the whole sexual abuse

[00:35:47] conversation or even just any sort of abuse conversation as when that happens it becomes

[00:35:51] part of our DNA but becomes part of us we can't we can no longer escape it it is part of who we are

[00:35:59] and like DNA it can replicate itself in ways we do not understand or even see and so for sexual

[00:36:05] abuse particularly with children on child sexual abuse it can impact our how we go to school

[00:36:10] with our friends with our family with any and every relationship it's certainly for a brother

[00:36:16] the men that we grow to become will be directly related to the support we do or do not get and

[00:36:22] the impact on society based on the support or lack there more many times means we are going to

[00:36:29] replicate what happened to us we're going to do the same thing to other girls and other women

[00:36:35] we're going to have negative or not productive relationships with women and girls because we

[00:36:41] not get to support and from my sister's perspective it impacted relationships that they had with boys

[00:36:47] that they did not want anything to do with them because the trauma for what my and my mother

[00:36:55] empowering that meant that okay are men not trustworthy and so there was no support for

[00:37:02] them at the time as well like I I've had a very supportive mother and father and even after

[00:37:08] my emotional piece of relationships I've had trouble trusting me and I can even imagine if like

[00:37:14] your mother allowed it and then it was your stepfather and yeah it's very hard to trust anybody

[00:37:21] again after that kind of abuse like happens to you people don't understand them yeah unless they've

[00:37:27] experienced it and it's certainly here in the united state the numbers are staggering when it

[00:37:32] comes to child sexual abuse in fact it's starting from a gender standpoint one in five children

[00:37:38] that are sexual abuse are boys so that's 20 percent that we know of and on any given day 160 unique

[00:37:44] children are sexual abuse here in the united state what what that means is today across the

[00:37:50] country 160 children went to school um played hopscotch and ball tether ball they had recessed

[00:37:58] lunch with their friends and then they went home and they played outside after homework and

[00:38:01] then they went to sleep but somewhere around 11 o'clock tonight one o'clock tonight their door

[00:38:06] is going to open someone's going to go in there and abuse that same thing happened yesterday at

[00:38:11] least 160 times here in the united state that's great what happened again tomorrow and those are

[00:38:17] the ones that are reported every day that's crazy have you seen Sound of Freedom by any chance

[00:38:24] yes first of all did you like the movie yes I love that movie I will I would probably say

[00:38:32] I would watch it again but it's a very tough subject but I would recommend everybody see that

[00:38:36] movie it's amazing and at the end it had like real facts about and it said that the united

[00:38:43] states was the number one consumer of child sex then i'm like how sexual abuse horrible and it

[00:38:48] should never happen to anyone but is the u.s really the number one consumer or is it the

[00:38:55] number one reported consumer that's it you got it the number one reported because if there's

[00:39:01] no reporting that gives anyone else whoever wants to think about it freedom to go because

[00:39:05] there's not going to be any reporting of them we have a number one reported and you're absolutely

[00:39:10] correct yeah because thailand it's just accepted there some of the stuff in thailand is they see

[00:39:17] it happening and they like don't do anything it's it is an epidemic a global epidemic and has been

[00:39:24] a global epidemic just the beginning of time the eroding communication between children who

[00:39:32] have been sexual abuse and everyone else it just continues to perpetuate just continues to grow

[00:39:38] and go and so how do you get children the support you need and in in my case is

[00:39:46] how do you get brothers just support because once we get the brothers into the conversation

[00:39:51] we can close that loop that family loop the sibling loop and someone i look to find and partner with

[00:39:59] people who could help me figure out what needs to happen to see my experience is not theoretical

[00:40:06] it is a lived experience and through i use my story so other people can live through us and

[00:40:12] hopefully find a way out and uh oftentimes i'm asked so what are the first things that you

[00:40:18] have to do get on the path of healing and number one you have to accept the fact that you are a

[00:40:23] victim and you are in survivor mode right now and which is really hard especially for men and young

[00:40:29] and boys to admit that we have been sexual abuse i didn't recognize i was sexually abused by my

[00:40:35] baby sister as sexual abuse until six years ago i had no idea i never even considered what she

[00:40:42] was doing to me as sexual abuse until i decided to look it up wait a minute was i being sexually

[00:40:47] abused because that's not something men talk about we're finding more and more celebrity men talking

[00:40:52] about it so the acceptance of your abuse is job one and then you can go forward and then it's about

[00:40:59] finding that person or persons who you can talk to who will not judge you because if people start

[00:41:06] to judge you and usually you're talking about this and they would have said i would have done

[00:41:10] this i would have done that once again that's noise you don't know as you said until you

[00:41:14] have lived it like with your experience and your abusive relationship long distance people can't tell

[00:41:20] you what that's unless they have experienced it they just can't and so you have to find those people

[00:41:24] if they have experience will at least let you on let you share because the emotional health is

[00:41:32] what we're talking about here we're not talking about mental health we're talking about emotional

[00:41:35] health which is inclusive it's about feelings it's about shared experience and when you can have

[00:41:40] the shared experience even if it's just someone who's just listening there there is this sense of

[00:41:46] peace and calm and you know that you're on the right path and so that is part of the process

[00:41:53] and it's the most important but it's the scariest one i'm really curious when you told your parents

[00:42:00] what was going on how long did it take you to get to a place where you felt comfortable

[00:42:04] that you could tell them oh they knew what was going on right or wrong because i was like

[00:42:08] telling them like oh he just said this he did this he just but yeah we the nice thing about living with

[00:42:16] your parents is they have more of a hold on what's going on but that's also the night not hold but

[00:42:23] because i'm an adult but awareness i guess you could say it was going on and i'm a very open

[00:42:28] person in general because i struggle with anxiety and if i don't talk about it i will it's not pretty

[00:42:33] so i was telling them like right or wrong and they they were supportive which i was very

[00:42:40] you are incredibly fortunate that you have parents like that i had gone on to what i think it was

[00:42:47] your website and i saw some of your picture and i think there was a picture of you

[00:42:51] with maybe your mother and your grandmother i think oh wait am i instagram yeah yeah and i saw

[00:42:59] that and you can just see there was just a lot of love there which as i said you are incredibly

[00:43:04] fortunate that you can have these conversations about a very hard subject it's not easy for

[00:43:12] certainly men to have these conversations we are accustomed to i'm king kong i hunt i do this

[00:43:20] and all we leave all that other stuff to women which is weird to me because we all have our

[00:43:25] male female dynamic working within us it helps us balance who we are and for men it's still very

[00:43:33] difficult and yet we have to find a way to make these conversations happy rather happen rather

[00:43:39] for being here is there anything else you wouldn't want to add before we get off here i would just

[00:43:43] like to say be it you're a man or woman boy or girl we all ultimately move to same things

[00:43:49] we all want to be happy we all want to be heard we want to be understood and we want to move

[00:43:54] forward with our lives in a positive direction do not be afraid to reach out to someone don't take

[00:44:01] 45 years like i did it makes it very difficult in your space be as strong as you possibly can

[00:44:07] and talk about your trauma it is releasing it's empowering it is and where can people

[00:44:15] follow you on social media people can follow me on instagram keeper catrin whitney they can

[00:44:19] follow me on tipp keeper catrin whitney follow me on facebook keeper catrin whitney dot author it's

[00:44:26] the best place there there's always my website keeper catrin whitney where there's a lot of

[00:44:30] resources and downloads and chapter reads and all sorts of stuff trailers and videos and things

[00:44:37] like that okay we'll put all those links in the show notes again thank you so much for being here

[00:44:41] thank you for sharing your story so that was fascinating wasn't it yeah i thought that

[00:44:47] was a really great insightful conversation i know it was tough in parts but i thought that was great

[00:44:54] so be sure to follow keeper on social media using the links in the show notes and follow me on social

[00:45:02] media and we'll put all those links in the show notes and we will see you guys next episode bye guys

[00:45:09] thank you for joining us we hope you enjoyed the show remember to follow the show and our

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[00:45:18] the show notes please remember to rate and review us see you next time